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1.
We ask this of everyone, but how do you
define postmodernism, as it relates to the church?
No
simple answer to this simple question.
But let’s start by saying one of the
biggest shifts as it relates to the church will be
from the modernist question of “does the church
understand what she believes” to the postmodern
“can the church live what she understands?”
The modern question is that of rational
dissection, parsing and information transmission. The postmodern question is about experiential congruence,
credibility, embodiment, and transformation. For
the church to live in this postmodern age she must
LIVE in this postmodern age. The modern church was more disposed to inform, indoctrinate
or cajole.
2.
What do you see as the two biggest problems
facing leaders in the emerging church?
The
first thing is lack of maps and few cartographers.
There is, of course, a huge upside here; we
may get curious and inquisitive about what “could
be.” But
our modernist moorings, where being seminar
junkies and bookaholics was rewarded with the
right answers for our analytical questions makes
ministry in this emerging new era very
problematic.
This new terrain is unmapped, the books
haven’t been written and therefore, the answers
seem illusive.
The fact is indigenous ministry will not
tolerate book answers to our questions.
And the maps may look very different from
what we are used to.
The first big mapping question is around
how we organically allow God’s story to
intersect the stories of people living in our
postmodern world? This may be the 94 million dollar question.
The
second big issue is how to create more workable
models of life change and transformation. We find
the information revolution so sexy. We have
gadgets and technology to keep it in front of us.
We have corporate departments that manage it.
But the reality is for all the information
floating around in the church there seems to be a
nearly inverse proportion of life change.
Certainly guys like Gallup and Barna
indicate that is the case.
One of the biggest leadership questions we
need to wrestle to the ground is what is the best
way to see lives changed not merely informed?
3.
How do you see churches move from the
mechanical to the organic?
This
is a relatively easy one for me.
Create huge tolerance for mess,
imprecision, lack of control, and curiosity.
The modern mechanical world was precise,
predictable, boring-as-all-get-out, and, frankly,
into control.
You can see these characteristics in many,
many modern churches.
The postmodern world and church is open to
not having all the answers but asking lots of
questions. The
only sure answer being the Good News of Jesus’
rule and reign.
The
postmodern church needs to be comfortable with
questioning sacred traditions, sacred structures
and sacred cows…and tipping all of them if
necessary. All
organic things grow and all growing things have
some measure of unpredictability.
Until we are more concerned with health and
the growth that automatically flows from it, we
will put constraining systems and structures
around the bubbling life of the Spirit. It seems
that the modern church has done all she can to
mechanize anything and everything.
From membership processes to salvation
processes, we have a mechanical and predictable
set of steps for just about everything.
If Paul or God really felt we needed Romans
reduced to a simple “road” or “four
spiritual principles for leading anyone to Christ”,
why didn’t he give them to us in that format? The
postmodern church will simply be more content with
the messiness of real life morphing than the
tidiness of modern structures and systems.
4.
At Westwinds, how do you get people
connected to ministry and each other?
We
connect people to each other by events where
people can hang out. For people just investigating community we have things like
our Valentines Jazz night where we sold 800
tickets, did round top tables in our auditorium
with black linen, crystal, Starbucks, and dessert.
Basically, a jazz club less the smoke.
The same weekend we piped in the Daytona
500 on our 20-foot-screen for people.
Had numerous people who have never set foot
in a church. Obviously we have the more usual connecting points like
divorce recovery, AA, parenting classes, etc…
As
for connecting people into ministry we have all
sorts of ministry teams from more urban flavored
need meeting opportunities to creative ministry
events. We connect people to these through simple word of mouth and
teammates making personal asks of people to join
their teams.
5.
What do you see as the major conflict(s)
between the modern and the emerging church?
The
biggest thing by far will be the realness with
which emerging churches carry on ministry.
It will be raw, real, and about God’s
story and how it sneaks up and surprises us.
I think the lack of polish, conversational
tone of the emerging church is so much more Jesus
and so much more what is being looked for.
Of
course worship style will always be a hot spot
generationally.
But I think one flash point will be whether
the modern church will come around to
acknowledging that what we see in the emerging
church is really the emergent “new thing” God
is doing or will they continue to decry it as a
temporary way station for the next generation
until they graduate to adult church.
Those that see it as a temporary way
station are probably those who thought the
Internet was a passing fad.
On
the more theoretical and theological front, the
emerging church has a huge tolerance for
questioning well worn doctrinal distinctives;
things like inerrancy, theories of atonement,
eschatology, and foundationalism all come to mind.
All of these are hot discussions in the emerging
church. In
most evangelical churches a pretty clear party
line has been established that nearly determines
your “orthodoxy” in their minds. The emerging church has little tolerance for being squeezed
into a doctrinal mold.
6. 6.
How
does Westwinds deal with "traditional
evangelical values" - like no alcohol at all
- in a postmodern world?
First,
I have a wine cellar and am a gourmet cook. That
may begin to get at your question.
But let’s look at this a bit.
We have to redefine holiness in biblical
categories not evangelical modernist ones.
This is part of that realness issue.
Jesus was in so many party contexts, not
overimbibing but almost certainly partaking I
might be quick to add, but he was in those
contexts so much that the moniker “glutton and
drunkard” could be used as an accusation.
Think about that a bit.
Westwinds has a policy of liberty in
regards to those gray areas Scripture does not
address. Drinking
wine with dinner or having a cold beer, scripture
doesn’t address, all that is addressed is
overindulgence.
I am familiar with all the conservative
attempts at biblical arguments for total
abstinence. They are simply stretched, tired, and
indefensible when carefully explored. This is what really gets thinking postmoderns’ noses out of
joint. If we have an opinion on abstinence, why
not simply be honest and say it is a personal
preference/conviction or feel is it more
culturally wise?
Why attempt to get chapter and verse
through hermeneutical gymnastics?
We respect those with differing
convictions; but we have little wick for those who
try to make their convictions on gray matters law.
7. 7.
What
advice would you give a new leader in an emerging
church?
Be
real, be deep, get curious about the new thing God
might do, listen, and ask great questions,
be a life
long learner, let spiritual formation be your main
event, don’t get trapped in people pleasing,
work for the audience of One, have fun doing what
you are doing or get out of it, ministry has
enough angry people for the next few generations.
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