john  covell

senior pastor at echo mountain 

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1.   How would you define the "postmodern movement" in the church?

A definition of the postmodern movement in the church is not necessarily a definition of postmodernism. In the church, "the postmodern movement" often seems to be a programming label you find alongside buzzwords like "alternative service" and "GenX," describing a type of program or event rather than a type of person, a way of thinking, or a sub-culture of a given community. I say this about churches on a broad scale because there are
still relatively few churches that are calling themselves postmodern in  a positive way.
 
I think the best way to define the postmodern movement is to say that it defies definition, which is what often makes it seem so postmodern. But there are certain traits or threads of historical and cultural postmodernism that weave their way throughout and emerge in genuine postmodern ministries.
 
One of these traits is a non-linear approach to spiritual formation. We don't force people into a one-size-fits-all program, matriculating them through a course of spiritual growth, commitment and service. For instance, in our church the phrase "new believer" doesn't make sense to our people.  As long as they have been "spiritual," or have believed in God, regardless of the form or structure of that belief, they have considered themselves "believers." Their belief in Christ may be new, but they often see it as the natural progression of their spiritual journey. As well, there are many who have to come to our church because they are trying to re-connect with Christ, in whom they have believed for much of their lives, but have not expressed their faith in worship or in a spiritual community for some time.

Having not grown up in church, I began seeking and following Christ as a young adult, not even knowing that Easter Sunday had anything to do with the resurrection of Christ until I was 20. Back in the early 80's when I began following Christ, I didn't find out until after I had been informally discipled by people who didn't realize they were discipling me that I had had not been officially discipled in a regulation Disciple Group. Lucky  for me, no one caught on.

Another trait is the desire to capture the essence of liturgy and ritual, but with new forms, some drawing on ancient forms and some creating their own. We are creating some traditions and liturgies in our church, not just for the sake of liturgy and tradition per se, but because they are the natural byproducts of communities and families.


2.  Story, "Truth in the Narrative," is a prime way of sharing the truth with "not-yet-believers." How does Echo Mountain approach "story?"

 
Everyone has a story, including God-the one who's story has an inherent supernatural power that can change the courses of the lives (stories) of people forever. I'd like to think that our use of  "story" is not so much programmatic or some kind of postmodern marketing tool, but that it is characteristic of the personality of our church and services.

We saw a great example of this last Sunday. My Associate Pastor (also named John) and his wife Tiffany just had a premature baby named Livia who spent the first 17 days of her life in the neonatal ICU. Our current message series has been looking at the stories of the people of the Bible and we are currently looking at Peter. John's "sermon" was all about how, during those three weeks of his life, he drew so heavily on things Peter describes in 2 Peter 1:3-8. He was able to weave Peter's story in with his own as well as the stories of those he knew were listening to him speak.

Our Sunday morning services are the only time when the mutual exchange of personal stories-whether for the purpose of seeking or giving encouragement-is the primary form of "ministry." The stories that are told both verbally and relationally to friends, family, apart from the worship service are the things God uses most often to pour his love and grace out through our lives and into the lives of other people.

Regarding the use of story-telling or narrative presentations in the sermon, there is an opinion out there that engaging with scripture on the "story-level" or by presenting it in a narrative or story-telling style implies a sub-standard level of exegesis and study. That may be true in some cases, but not it doesn't have to be. I would argue that, in order to tell the story of scripture, one must be committed to thorough exegesis and attention to the text and context of each passage, otherwise we miss profound elements of the stories of scripture that offer tremendous hope and encouragement to people who sincerely want to follow Christ. This doesn't mean you have to be fluent in biblical languages because there are enough resources that will walk you through. However, neglecting critical resources and prepare messages using only devotional-quality resources and commentaries does a disservice to a church. I'll get off that soapbox now.


3. What makes the Worship experience at Echo Mountain different from other churches in the area?

When we began Echo Mountain Church in May of 1999, I was acutely aware that our geographic location is not at all unchurched in the sense that there are plenty of churches nearby. Echo Mountain is literally a 10-minute (or less) drive from many churches that offer traditional services, blended services, seeker-driven services, seeker-sensitive-purpose-driven structures, contemporary services, and alternative services. Yet there are still thousands of people living near our church who were not attending those churches, so we set out to intentionally create a worship service and worship experiences that were different than these churches. Not because we believe they are doing anything wrong or because we have an ax to grind against them, but only to try and connect with people who were not connecting to these churches.

There are levels of worship experience at Echo where someone might experience things that are unique to our church. Making people feel accepted wherever they are at on their spiritual journey is not just a mantra or an ecclesiastical platitude. We really do all we can to provide this experience for people. We integrate communion into our services about once each month, telling out people that it is not only a form of worship, but that it is also a ritual through which we identify ourselves as followers of Christ.  We acknowledge that there are always those in our services who would not yet
identify themselves this way so we decided not to pass trays down the aisle because that tends to communicate an expectation that each person will participate. Even though I've sat in churches where they warned us to "just
let the elements pass by," the truth is, people are watching you and if don't take it, you feel very conspicuous. In our auditorium, there are tables in the front, on each side, and in the back. We introduce a time for communion by giving a short reflection on the bread and the cup and then playing some quiet, acoustic worship songs. During this time we encourage people to pray, reflect, meditate, sing, and then get up and get the bread and the cup on their own off of one of the tables. It's very cool to watch people do this in solitude, but also to see parents and children, husbands and wives, siblings, friends, etc. going to a table together.

Regarding music, we have chose two primary departures from other contemporary or purpose-driven churches. We incorporate very little (if at all) of the adult-contemporary-Hosanna-Vineyard-Integrity-Christian-top-40 worship songs. Again, not because we're against them. The songs in our service are often original (written within and for our church) or
lesser-known songs with original arrangements. Our bands more closely resemble a band you would see in a club-four or five people who play an instrument as well as sing. We do very little "performance" music and we encourage people to sing, pray, or just listen during the worship-whatever will best help them to connect with and hear from God during that time.  Our musical style is a millennial-retro-guitar-driven-pop sound through which we have a time of high-energy celebration as well as a time of quiet, acoustic reflection. One thing that is also different is that our Senior Pastor (me) is also the worship leader.

It is important to note that we encourage our people to view their "worship" as the entirety of the expression of their faith. In other words, singing songs as a church is one form of worship, but so is the way they relate to their co-workers or their spouse, as well as the ways in which they serve God by serving people in ministry. These are just a few examples, mostly pertaining to our services, of what worship looks like at Echo Mountain.


4. How important do you believe community is to a postmodern people?

 
It is extremely important-so much so that, without it, our message doesn't make sense to them. One of the characteristics of postmodern people is that they have experienced a disillusionment with materialism. Some of them saw its futility in their parents' lives, while others experienced it firsthand.  Over half of them saw their parents get divorced and many of them are divorced themselves. For these reasons (and many more) meaningful, enduring friendships are extremely important and they generally do not seek out anything meaningful for their lives apart from relationships or without the expectation of meaningful relationships. This dynamic is not without its inconsistencies, however. For example, a growing number of postmodern couples who are followers of Christ live together before marriage, admitting that it opposes God's design for marriage, and even though statistics consistently show that that couples who live together and then marry get divorced more often than those who do not.

The community experience is germane to our church. Our church's purpose is to meet people wherever they're at on their spiritual journey and to help them to grow as followers of Christ. (I know purpose statements are a very modern, boomer-ish thing, but ours really helps us to stay focused.) In the same way, we describe our "mission" or the parameters of our ministry efforts as "becoming connected with the community around our church; and becoming connected as a spiritual community within our church."

Relationships, mutual encouragement and support, serving God by serving each other, developing and deepening friendships, mentoring, discipling, studying the Bible together, going to lunch, encouraging someone who's experiencing  a struggle you've survived, etc. are all different forms of community, among many others.


5. Looking to the future, what three, or four, major waves do you believe God is sending?

On the global scale, I'm not really the one to ask, so I'll answer this regarding the waves I see God sending to and through local, postmodern churches.

One wave I think is coming is a return to the credibility of the smaller, neighborhood church. When I say "neighborhood," I mean that the church is primarily attended by people who live less than five miles from it's location. People are beginning to reject the idea that a church is always better when it is bigger. I believe that mega-churches can offer many good things to people; I served at two mega-churches (attendance of 5,000+).  However, I think that, once a postmodern neighborhood church has developed the critical mass necessary to provide quality resources for their people, they will begin physically growing out instead of growing up. What I mean is that, instead of just getting more and more people to sit in a room together and become the biggest church in town, churches will grow and then send part of their number short distances away to create a similar ministry in another neighborhood.

A wave that I think is already here is an embracing of theological diversity within an orthodox context in a given church. It is not uncommon for modern churches to present doctrinal "non-essentials" as if they were essential.   By non-essentials, I mean issues such as pre-mill and pre-trib issues, Calvinist versus Arminian issues, etc. As we formed our statement of faith, we intentionally created one that could be as inclusive as possible, drawing "lines in the sand" only on issues we believed were necessary for congregational unity. As a result, there is diversity on ecclesiology, eschatology, and soteriology on our board, our staff, and among our elders. We are solidly united on what we all consider essentials, but we believe that our example of respectful discussion and disagreement encourages our people to study these issues and form their own opinions, rather than just ingesting the "party lines" of their church. On the other hand, if a church feels that God has commissioned them to promote a certain theological perspective or agenda, they should do that to which they believe God has called them. But at the same time, churches such as ours, that feel God  has called them to a more inclusive theological approach should pursue that with the same commitment and for equally good reasons.

6. Tech plays an important role in our lives, how do you see the church using tech to reach a postmodern people?

 
For postmodern people, technology is a way of life. Computers, video games, digital graphics, cell phones, voice mail, email, the ATM, etc. are all the norm. I believe that the church needs to be careful not try to and compete with MTV and Playstation because it will always lose. But as long as the church is using technology to do what the church is there to do, it makes sense to people. If we don't utilize technology people will think we're naïve and inefficient.

We don't play our music as if we think we're as hot as the Dave Matthews Band or try to present a video or a PowerPoint slide show as if we think it's as good as the latest U2 video. But on the other hand, God has brought us enough talented, creative, and technologically astute people to offer quality music and effective media. The resources are inexpensive, accessible, and easy to use so we would be foolish not to use them. But  this does not mean you sacrifice quality. Our people are familiar enough with these resources to know what they are capable of producing. To create or present anything less than our very best-both creatively and technically-damages the credibility of our message and community. In our church, we have excelled musically but not kept pace with our media resources so we are now making that a priority.


7. Given the new meaning to the term "911," how do you believe we as a Christian people need to minister in this time of hate and confusion?

 
In the aftermath of September 11th, we saw millions of people who had been previously indifferent toward God reach out in prayer, service, and to seek community with others. God's people have a window of opportunity to show
their world how these things can all be daily, life-long foundations to their lives rather than psychological or sociological insurance policies that are only necessary when disaster strikes. Regarding ongoing problems of racism and hate, God's people refuse to succumb to these things, even in the most seemingly innocuous scenarios. Racial humor at work, economic and class separations at church, the marginalizing of single adults, especially single parents are just a few examples of how the church fails to lead people to a higher plane where people are valued as God's creation and the objects of unconditional love and the sacrificial death of Christ.


Any Closing Thoughts?

 
OK, you asked for it!  Going to church at Echo is a lot like going swimming. Some wade in slowly-very slowly. Some jump in, knowing for certain they're right where they want to be. Some need formal lessons while others learn by watching
others-some still in their street clothes. They're actually there quite often, but they're still trying to decided if they even want to go swimming at all. Those in the pool telling them "Come on in, the water feels great!" and they just smile and say, "I'm okay. I might go swimming later on, but not right now."

Seeing our church like a pool complicates the process of figuring out how to meet the needs of all these "swimmers." Do you need to learn to dive before you learn the breaststroke? Is it more important to be able to swim laps before learning to do a cannonball? What about those who spend 90% of their time in the pool actually just lying in the sun reading and talking, only getting wet when they need to cool off? Are they really "swimming?" And  who is really qualified to teach someone else how to swim? Only the lifeguard?  The one who's lousy at swimming laps might still be the best one to encourage those contemplating that first jump off the side.

When people come to our pool, instead of lining them up into classes, we show them the deep end, the shallow end, the diving board, and the lanes for swimming laps. We have "floaties" for the little ones and kick boards for adults who want them. Experienced swimmers usually know where they want to begin. Inexperienced swimmers ask questions, but don't always let on how insecure the really are about swimming. They act as if they swim all the time, but their farmer's tans and 10 year-old, ill-fitting swimsuits give them away.

Where does a pastor fit into the pool? Pool manager. Lifeguard. Swimming instructor. Standing on the edge and watching people, I can give them tips on how well they're doing or how their diving form looks. As well, sometimes I have to blow my whistle and tell people that it's unsafe to run along the pool deck. I might get in and hold someone afloat, telling them they really won't drown when I pull my hands away-and if they do start to sink, I'll pull them back up and we'll try it again.

Some people just prefer to watch and learn, asking questions, and practicing with a friend. Our church isn't always a big pool party. There's always someone who thinks its funny to splash people in the face. Some people pee in the pool. They don't admit it, but they do. People spill their drinks or drop food into the pool when they're not paying attention. If you accidentally swallow some water, the chlorine will make you gag and vomit and gross everyone out. When that happens, some will get out and wait for someone else to clean it up before they get back in. Someone else will take it upon themselves to clean it up. But no matter what, the pool is most enjoyable when other people are there.

Dennis accepted Christ in a cult-like group during the Jesus movement of the late 60's. After a traumatic discharge, he spent 30 years battling alcoholism and drug addictions. His Jewish therapist is a massage-therapy client of a young woman in our church. She told Dennis that Echo would be a good place to deal with his hatred for the church and for people in general.  For the first several weeks, he was looking for any reason he could to justify his claim that Christians were judgmental, condemning and wouldn't accept him right where he was just for who he is. He's been swimming in  our pool ever since. At least once a week (sometimes more) we have a conversation about how God is melting his heart. He's a curious paradox of a spiritually thirsty, yet relationally guarded child of God for whom Christ is deconstructing an entire emotional, relational and spiritual grid.

Have you ever watched a new mother take her child to swimming lessons for the fist time? She hands her child over to swimming instructors that look way too young to be watching over so many children near water. That nervous mother, sitting on the pool deck, trying to look relaxed is thinking, "Please be careful. You have no idea how valuable that person in your hands is to me." The lives of these people, while they swim in our pool are holy ground. Listening to my sermon, singing a worship song, asking for advice or prayer, uncovering a wound, describing a personal breakthrough, confessing sin, letting me baptize them, taking a free Bible, going to a small group because I said they ought to, serving in a ministry, inviting a friend to church-the list goes on and on-are all invitations to me to enter "holy ground. When someone says, "Your message was just for me," that's holy ground. When someone describes that dark, dichotomous place where the weakness of their flesh violently collides with the willingness of their spirit, that's holy ground.

God delivers the same Gospel to unique individuals. Nicodemus, Jairus, Peter, Paul, the bleeding woman, the woman at the well, the Gerasene demoniac, the 10 lepers, the Ethiopian eunuch, and Cornelius all swam in  the same pool, but they all swam differently. What's our evangelism strategy?   To respectfully and compassionately meet and accept each one wherever they're at on their spiritual journey and invite them into the pool. My most important strategy is to remember that an invitation into holy ground is  an honor afforded to a privileged few. God hands his children over to us and says, "Please be careful. You have no idea how valuable that person in your hands is to me."